Awhile back I started switching all of my heat, lighting, and cooking over to propane. The logic was I only had to pile one kind of fuel. And that fuel is very stable. I could just imagine having different fuels to run different things, only to find out you didnt have enough of one, and had to do without one of the categories mentioned.
What are the thoughts of other preppers on this? Any better ideas? Concerns? Etc.?
Kelly,
Have you been running on propane long enough to make any cost comparison from you pre-propane days? My primary experience with propane is in the smaller containers connected to my grill and not running propane larger appliances or providing whole house heating. I would be interested to know what your costs are.
Propane is a good fuel. There are drawbacks, especially for storage and transport. The tanks cost money, and are heavy relative to the usable fuel they hold making it less portable per BTU compared to other fuels. Propane is very convenient to use.Originally Posted by Kelly Alwood
The best fuel from a storage and transport perspective is probably kerosene. It's stable, relatively safe, and lasts a long time. But it seems it requires a "knack" to make devices work for it, I've seen many a newbie fuel spill and trouble lighting them...
"White gas" is essentially very similar to unleaded but much "purer" or without additives/varnishing elements, and will essentially store forever in the store packaging. It is volatile, which can make it dangerous like gasoline is dangerous. Spills will evaporate relatively quickly, and it's much easier to light and use than is kerosene. In a pinch, it can be put in a gasoline powered car as rather expensive gas. In a pinch, regular gasoline can be used in the devices, but with the possibility of clogging the device due to the additives. This is the route I've mostly gone, I have a small stock of white gas in 1 gallon containers. I mostly intended it for cooking fuel, so we have two stoves and a spare governor or whatever it's called...
Butane is a gas like propane for convenience, but it suffers in cold temperatures. Probably not suitable for large quantities that I've discovered.
Charcoal works for cooking fuel too. Just needs to be kept dry...
Heat is essentially a no-go from the start for most situations. The numbers never work for a mobile heat source, the cost per BTU per pound is crazy for what it would take to get a portable shelter through a Utah winter. Prohibitively expensive and prohibitively bulky. Your fuel will need to be located on sight, or you need a large trailer just for your fuel, and if it were me. If I've gone mobile, I just wouldn't afford the space.
If you are able to locate and fill large tanks on your property, the picture changes and heat could well be viable.
Other dangers lurk from fuel heating, such as carbon monoxide. I'd use propane or butane over Kerosene or white gas as it's easier to get to burn cleaner, but great care must still be taken. No amount of heat is worth suffocating in a tent.
I don't recommend fuel for lighting either, batteries+flashlights are generally a cheaper, more efficient, and safer route last time I ran the numbers.
I use and have stockpiled all of the fuel listed above.
I originally started storing fuels for every category. I purchased and have on hand 1 1/2 years supply of lamp oil for 4 lamps burning every night. It is stable, safe and light. However, I was never impressed with the light they put out.
I have 1 1/2 year supply of butane for cooking two stoves full time. I love the butane. It is very safe, lite, and hot. The stoves are very efficient. Our house cooked on the stove full time for 6 weeks, every meal for about $6 in fuel.
Charcoal is a no go for the house, or inside a tent. Way too large and heavy too.
White gas is another liquid fuel that is too expensive and heavy. And there is no substitute for it when you start running low.
Kerosene is an ok fuel, but is large, heavy, and will go bad, and can spill. At 40 pounds per 5 gallons, the weight and space is unacceptable. I have found kerosene very convienient at times, but very inefficient to heat with.
So I guess myy thing is, I have already purchased my supply of fuels, and I am liking propane more and more. I just dont like liquid fuels. They are much too heavy, take up way too much space, not cheeper than propane, and can go bad. This winter we ran kerosene for a while. I found that it cost about $7 per day to heat my house. Propane cost me about $3 per day, and did a much better job too.
I just cant see having enough space to store enough kerosene. I do store some, but it is for the salamander, generator, log splitter, truck, etc.
All-Knowing Moderator
Never put all of your egg in one basket.
Kenneth
*******************
If you fail to prepare . . . you prepare to fail !
. . . la caridad es el amor puro de Cristo, . . .
I'm having a hard time with those numbers, 1$ in fuel costs for 21 meals is a dream I've never seen. The only real common supply of butane I've seen is the 8 oz cans that fit in the ~10-20$ stoves. They are very convenient, easy to use etc. But the cans run $1.5-$3 and only last an hour to two hours of cook time from my experience (I've only used it a few times). That puts the cost per meal at closer to $0.5-$1 depending on how much cooking is involved and the rate of the burner. If you can show me how to manage your numbers, I wouldn't mind stocking up a little more butane.
Agreed, it is not for a house or tent. Its outdoor cooking only, and it is heavy for the heat. But only about double that of liquid and gas fuels.Charcoal is a no go for the house, or inside a tent. Way too large and heavy too.
You keep calling liquid fuels "heavy". Lets run a few quick and dirty numbers...White gas is another liquid fuel that is too expensive and heavy. And there is no substitute for it when you start running low.
Kerosene is an ok fuel, but is large, heavy, and will go bad, and can spill. At 40 pounds per 5 gallons, the weight and space is unacceptable. I have found kerosene very convienient at times, but very inefficient to heat with.
So I guess myy thing is, I have already purchased my supply of fuels, and I am liking propane more and more. I just dont like liquid fuels. They are much too heavy, take up way too much space, not cheeper than propane, and can go bad. This winter we ran kerosene for a while. I found that it cost about $7 per day to heat my house. Propane cost me about $3 per day, and did a much better job too.
Kerosene: 19.7k BTU/lb
White gas: 19.4k BTU/lb
Charcoal: 9k BTU/lb
Butane: 21.2k BTU/lb
Propane: 21.5k BTU/lb
Methane: 23.9k BTU/lb
By these numbers, the gas and liquid fuels are all within 10% of each other except for methane, with charcoal dragging up the rear. Now this is the pure energy available from each fuel by weight, then there are packaging considerations. Consider propane's container needs. One good new "20 lb"/5 gallon tank usually weighs in at around 18 lbs. This will reduce the BTU/lb from 21.5k to 11.3k after packaging considerations (assuming 100% fill, which I understand rarely happens), which puts it in the same ball park as charcoal... Liquid fuels don't require nearly so much, maybe another 5% of the weight for stout containers. For space, I didn't locate numbers exactly, but I think it's intuitive that gas fuels are more bulky than liquid fuels per BTU.
This should illustrate that liquids are neither "heavy" nor "bulky" compared to gas fuels, in fact - quite the opposite. They are denser and much more portable per unit of energy. Another proof is the range available to a gasoline powered vehicle compared to CNG (Compressed Natural Gas), a very stark difference. For mobility, liquid is king.
If you look at cost, I believe methane has a considerable lead, followed by propane and then the liquid fuels which typically bring up the rear. I totally believe your kerosene vs propane heating cost comparison. I would anticipate that methane (natural gas) would be even better. Where propane does not compare well cost wise is when you are just storing it for emergency use. Then you need to buy containers as well as fuel and it ends up much more expensive than a one time purchase of liquid fuels. If cost is the driver and you have lots of space, charcoal can become attractive for the right price for cooking fuel.
I also really like the convenience of gaseous fuels, they are very *easy* to use. When easy, and cheap, and available - absolutely, use methane where you can, and propane after that. It works great for staying at home. But if the PHTF, and you're loading down a bug out vehicle where you have to count the ounces and cubic inches, neither would be my first choice. I will load up the white gas and stoves and save the extra pounds and cubic feet for other things.
A last note, methane is not very good for mobility. It requires about 3x the volume as propane for the same fuel, the containers are 3x the size, weight, etc. Which just magnifies the space/weight/cost disadvantages that storing propane has many times over.
Some musings and numbers on butane..
I don't consider butane a *primary* cooking fuel because I understand it is only a 3 season fuel. In low temperatures (much below freezing), it will not have enough pressure to run a stove. Thus, to cook food in the winter, outside, it's a no-go. I guess you could try to get around this by sleeping with your fuel canister or warming it up before use. I would want to try that before depending on it though... Maybe a bit of "insulation" stuffed between the canister and the outside of the stove would help keep it warm. Possibly something like an insulated drink sleve I've seen for watter bottles. Yes, something like that might work..
For the 8 oz can of butane that I can find locally in the grocery stores, a good price I've been able to readily find when I've looked is $1.5. The stove is a 10k/hour BTU stove. I once found a blowout for $0.75/can, and that's when I stocked up... But I've never seen it before or since (caveat, I don't regularly check out butane prices). Believe it or not, the checker openly looked for butane on a list of "please tattle to homeland security if someone buys this" they had, cause it was, say, quite unusual for someone to buy up all their butane, D'oh! In retrospect, I should have pointed out that the butane I purchased was less fuel and BTUs they they pump into their cars on a weekly basis to put them at ease.. It was not on the list and they let me buy with little more than hard looks.
An 8 oz can of butane, per the numbers in the previous post, will have 10.6k BTUs per fuel canister. Which you can consume in a hour flat on max using the stove, which matches my experience of one to two hours of useful life from a can.
Heating one gallon of water, from 45 deg to a 212 boiling point is about 1400 BTUs using the definition of BTU. In practice, it's probably closer to 2000-3000 BTUs out of a stove running 50-75% efficiency and losing some heat to the environment. I think, depending on the exact cooking requirements, I'm looking at ~3000 BTUs per meal average for my family of 4. I probably want to do more than bring it to a boil, but I'll probably have less than a gallon. So I'll pick 5000 BTUs per meal as I want to be conservative, it's nice round number, and my boys will only get bigger. It's probably very conservative with the right fuel minded cook.
For 365*3 = 1095 hot meals per year, I need 5.475 Million BTUs or 516 fuel canisters running me ~$750 (@ $1.50/can) or >$2/day and using a *lot* of space.
Compare to white gas, which I can find at walmart for around $5.50/gallon last I checked. I need 46 gallons and it will cost me $253, which will use significantly less space and weigh.
The break even price for butane cans is $0.49. I've never seen them for that price, but even that still doesn't even touch your numbers :-) Though you may only be cooking for 1? Or only needed brief cooking? So many variables.
Anyway, the even with those raw numbers, I have both in my stores because sometimes you want convenience over fuel efficiency. Making a white gas stove come to life takes a few minutes as well as a bit of skill to run and I don't think mine will run 10k BTU/hour like the butane so it takes a bit more time too. Butane will roar to life by turning a knob and pushing a button, so a small premium and a little extra space don't bother me for a few conviences for a cook as well as a bit of redundancy.
Compare to propane, you need ~60 gallons of propane for the BTUs. I did a quick search for price and found $11 for a 5 gallon fillup, with that price you can have a year supply of cooking fuel for $132 if you already have the 12 5 gallon tanks at your disposal and you get 100% fill in them. Though it will weigh like 470 lbs vs 285 for white gas.
I think kerosene numbers will look very similar to white gas, only you need 41 gallons instead of 46 to hit the BTUs and the weight will be the same.
I came to the same conclusion as BackBlast after running the numbers. Kerosene is the most BTU dense fuel that is readily available and easily stored. I figured I'd need twice the amount of space to store the equivalent number of BTUs of propane compared to kerosene. Kerosene with a PRI-D fuel preservative is therefore my long term storage fuel. Kerosene however isn't as convenient to use being messy and smelly and most kerosene appliances need a wick which can become fouled and need replacing and must be properly adjusted to maintain proper burning. Kerosene is good to -30 degrees before it will start gelling too much to burn and on the opposite end, it won't spontaneous combust below 130-140 degrees. You could throw a match into a bucket of kerosene and the match would go out. That's the reason kerosene needs a wick or needs preheating in order to get it going.
I also store a good amount of propane because it's so easy to use and safer to store than gasoline which is good because I have a propane generator. However, propane like butane will have problems when it comes to cold weather. If you were in sub freezing temperatures only the fullest and largest sized propane tanks would be able to produce enough pressure to work consistently with most propane devices. You will need to keep the tanks and propane in the 40-50 degree or above temperature range to be able to complete use the fuel in a tank. Propane tanks should also never be completely filled because in the summer heat propane will expand inside the tank and unless the tank has a vent valve it could be very dangerous.
Around here in Utah county Kerosene is currently about $6 a gallon delivered in a 55 gallon drum. If you have your own containers you can find it for about $4 per gallon.
Alcohol is another good storage fuel. Isopropyl alcohol can be found cheap enough to make it practical and will burn clean enough for in door use. It is however, not very BTU dense so it takes a good amount more fuel to get the same amount of heat produced, and Isopropyl alcohol produces more soot because of the water content.
You can find 99% isopropyl alcohol vs the 70% that is typically found in stores. Look for the red label rather than the blue for a common brand... Even if it's not on the shelf, if you ask in a pharmacy they can usually get it for you. Also available online. Still has a bit of water, the only way I've seen to get 100% is to buy from a science supply store for crazy money.
My only experience with lighting kerosene is when we used it to help burn our garbage in Brazil. Not so easy to light, it takes a bit of work. And if it's windy and cold... ugh, I don't even want to think about it. I have an easier time with white gas. Have you practiced with your kerosene devices? How are you with them?
I dont know where the above calculations came from. This to me is no different than the guestimates that appear all over the internet. EPA says my suv will get 6 more mpg than my truck really does. It says my Talkabout radios are good for 26 miles. It says my batteries will take twice as many pictures as my camera really does. It says my sleeping bag will keep keep me warm 25 degrees more than it does. It says my boots will keep my feet warm 20 degrees colder than they really do.
The information I put out is from real world use. I NEVER rely on guestimations and estimates when planning for disaster. I think that is foolish.
I bought a butane stove, and tested it. We used this stove exclusively for Six weeks in our home. We cooked Every meal with it. No microwave.
We cooked all of our things for a family of five. We used just over two cans in a month. This stove and fuel ran 12 hours on a single can of fuel. The fuel cost me $1.35 per can.
That makes the actual cost $2.70 per month for cooking fuel. Maybe $3.00 because we changed the fuel two days before the end of the month.
We kept a log in the kitchen. Every time the stove was turned on, we documented it. I was asking if anyone had tried other products, and found them better suited for cooking. Cost, weight, ease of use, portable, reliable.
I heat my home with propane. The cost of using kerosene heaters was over 300% more money than with propane, and it did not keep the house as warm, or heat all the areas of the home. This was a test I ran on kerosene for one month. The fuel consumption was very different. I used 15 five gallon cans of kerosene for one month. The next month, and a warmer month, I used less than a small 100 gallon cylinder. The space taken by the kerosene was unacceptable. You also have to figure wick treatments and fuel preservers into the cost of your kerosene.
I am not going to quote any data off the internet or manufacturer claims. I test everything and post real results.
The kerosene beat the lamp oil for brightness of light. But propane beat them both by far. I chose to go with lamp oil because it will store forever, and is not a hazzard fuel.
J.A.N.CLAN (07-06-2011), loghomebldr (12-08-2010)
MPG, battery life, cook time etc, are all subjective and depend on how you use the device and I've not intended to say you are mistaken in your experience. Trying it out for yourself is great and you should do that. BTUs are not subjective, they are fact. My comparisons in BTUs per $ and BTUs per pound are also accurate. Now, turning those BTUs into useful heat is another matter, and devices can vary in efficiency. I used my stove outside in the elements, you used your indoors. That right there could swing efficiency a great deal and could impact our results a great deal, my cook water started lower, lower environmental temp cooling stuff, and an active wind... We tried to cook a very large stew to feed quite a few people on a campout, and ran out of fuel about the time we were done, one meal. It was running near max. You can run it for 10 hours at the 1000 BTU/hour rate, I'm not saying you can't. If you consider your personal heating profile meeting your needs, don't worry about the other information provided. I put a good deal of emphasis on mobility as that was one of my primary concerns, and my feedback and facts reflect that focus. I'm not trying to take away what you found but show you how I looked at it and what I found.
Thank you Kelly for sharing your experience in these things with us. Actual experience is invaluable when considering these things!
-Darin-
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I agree that the liquid fuels deliver Higher BTU's than other fuels. I live in Utah and we are most prone to earthquakes. After living in Colombia and seeing the devastation that can be caused by an earthquake, Im not so sure that I would have a LOT of any flammable liquid stored near my residence.
What I saw was a combination of things... Colombia is more wet that most of the united states.. So earthquakes caused landslides - a lot of the time (There was one near medellin yesterday). This also seems to cause fires, for whatever reason (Gas leaks were common) and liquid fuels turned into incendiary devices.
I personally do have 3 propane tanks.. and about 600 lbs of briquettes. For me (wife and me) That will give us about two hot meals a day for about a year. If I have to bug out..all the liquid fuel or briquettes stored wont mean anything.. I dont think.
AZ Prepper (12-07-2010)
Thank you
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