Preparedness Weapons

[Kelly Alwood]

I would like to start a discussion on what firearms are really appropriate for the preparedness people.
I will start by saying a few things. First, I have spent a lot of time streamlining my inventory of weaponry. Meaning, I just dont see a need to stockpile a large amount of firearms. I think as we explore this topic, you will find there are only a few tools needed to really do everything that could need done. As with my packs, and gear, I make sure just about everything I have is multipurpose. Some things need specialty tools, but most objectives can be accomplished with a tool (weapon) that is used for something else. That being said, there are things out there that are way too multitool for me. Example: the shotgun. I know this will start a titlewave from the readers, but the shotgun is a complete compromise in all aspects. It does a lot of things, and none of them very well.
For instance, its range is more limited than a .22LR. Its accuracy is worse than any other caliber rifle in the world. Its power is way overkill for 99% of anything that you would use it on. It is mediocre at everything it does. What does the shotgun do better than a rifle or pistol? What is its best attribute? It has compromised everything so it can do a little of everything, and Im sure if you looked at it logically, you can find a better weapon to do whatever job it is that you want to do with the shotgun.
Its hunting capabilities are very limited with range and accuracy. It is completely worthless as a home defense weapon. And Im not sure why else you need a gun other than for protection and hunting.
So lets here some thoughts on some firearms of choice for TEOTWAWKI, preparedness people.

[AZ Prepper]

I would say that if I had only 1 choice, it would be a Ruger Mark II 5.5" barrel .22 LR handgun. Small, yet meets ALMOST every need. You can carry a ton of ammo in a very small space and very little weight. You can also get a variety of ammo, including snake shot (bird shot). It can be used for self defense (although definitely not optimal), to kill small game and even large game when necessary (I know people down south who've killed many deer with a .22LR, although it is illegal now days and not the best caliber for that).




It's definitely not my complete list, but it's a start for this topic. If only one weapon could be obtained, it would be this one for me. Then others built on top of that...

[Kelly Alwood]

A great overall choice I think, if you could only take one. Another good choice could be this Walther P22 pictured below, and as you can see it has a suppresor wich would aid in hunting and defense as well.



The next pic is my "one gun of choice". If I could only take one, this would be it. It is an FN Fiveseven. It is the best pistol combat round available today. 5.7X28 mm. It is also a very effective hunting round. It is accurate to 100m, small enough for small game hunting, but poweful enough for deer size game.
It holds to my rules of small, lightweight, and multipurpose. However, with weapons, a few criteria can change. Although size and weight are considered, it is not a determining factor. Other qualities are priority.
Number one is Reliablitiy. No other quality is more important for a weapon than this.
After this is a few things that the order of priority depends on the purpose. For example, Accuracy would take presidence over all else for precistion engagement (sniper) duties. Weight and size would take priority on a recon type mission. Caliber would be high on the list for home defense choosing.

[shine]

fiveseven, if i may...

I know you have much real world experience, and i hope i am not crossing a line in asking. Have you seen the 5.7 round in action in that pistol? or in the p90/ps90? I don't know how common their usage was in the sand box. Sometimes i wonder if the stats on paper, match up with the real world. sometimes they don't.

I love the 5.7 round and its guns. I was thinking of buying a p90, but thought better of it because of the paper/statistics.

[Kelly Alwood]

I have only seen it in action once. A PSD team in Baghdad made up of Czech Spec Ops guys was carrying and using the P90's and pistol. I saw them used one time, but I honestly did not asses any results at the time except the fact that they did work.
I will say two things for sure. The US Secret Service is employing them. And because I am like you, and wanted to confirm reports and test them myself. I aquired a few sets of military IBA (level III with plates) from an unbenounced agancy, and shot them. I tested several arms and calibers after that. But the results of the pistols were great. The shots were fired from a distance of 25m. The blue tip did not go all the way through the kevlar, but the HP did almost half the time. The HP penetrated the new kevlar helmets as well.
Now, the solid AP rounds went through both sides and exited the helmet.
Life tissue damage was assesed on a deer and racoon and coyote. All were killed with one round...All had through and through bullet penetration..complete pass through...quite large wound channels...I was very impressed.

[WhiteWaterLady]

Wow! I was blown away by your diss of shot guns. I'd a lot rather go bird hunting with a shot gun than with a rifle or hand gun or AK. And home defense it's useless? Please explain.

[BackBlast]

Well, to score a kill. Penetration is king. A shotgun is going to have pretty random penetration characteristics unless you use a slug.

Here's an interesting thread about terminal performance from an LEO. Dr Roberts shows up to confirm many of the observations. It's mostly about pistol rounds and limited rifle, but his anecdotal information suggests that shotguns can be rather random and can lack penetration, even with good 00 buck type loads. (Warning, it is a long thread...)

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1165386

I tend to agree that shotguns are nitch weapons, very specialized at what they do. Even pistol caliber carbines have a wider range of uses (except for shooting down foul) and many consider those akin to useless compared with a proper carbine.

[blbardsley]

I personally tend to agree about the shotgun. It seems to have applications for home defense and hunting birds on the wing. Beyond that, it represent a mediocre weapons platform that weighs a ton. If I'm tooling around Baghdad in an uparmored hummer and want a tool to take doors, sure. If I'm rolling in my well worn boots trying to escape and evade with what's on my back, there is no way I'm bringing a shotgun. The weapon isn't light and the ammo weighs a ton, especially if I want to carrry both slugs and shot. If I were bunkered up somewhere ala "Patriots", I'd be fine with it, as long as I had a good complement of other weapons. Outside of home defenseor very close quarters work, it is ineffective. If you shoot buckshot at close range, pray there are nobody but bad guys around. If you use slugs, pray you don't miss because the overpenetration is impressive.
As far as the P90 goes, my ONLY concern in an TEOTWAWKI situation, I would be concerned about the availability of ammo and replacement parts. Again, were I bunkered up somewhere and had laid on plenty of ammo and supplies, I'd be good with it. Just my two cents worth.
I couldn't agree more about the .22. I think it is an excellent round in the TEOTWAWKI realm for a variety of reasons. It can easily take small game with limited damage to the meat. The weapon itself is light and so is the ammo. Perhaps most of all, it will also be quiet. I am in an urban environment and letting fly with some sort of elephant gun is going to bring me a whole lot of undesired attention from everyone in earshot. I also think that is a tremendous amount of overreliance on firepower and underreliance on fieldcraft. I remember reading Heinlein's book "A Tunnel in the Sky", where the protagonist is advised on a survival exercise to carry only a knife and thus avoid the temptation of becoming overconfident and careless because of firepower. Remember, if you get lured into a firefight and catch a round, there is an excellent chance you are going to die even if you win the engagment. There is no 911 and no trauma center.
I could very well be way off the mark, but those are my thoughts.

[Kelly Alwood]

Very good comments and concerns. Let me give you my personal insight on the shotgun, particularly as a home defense weapon.
Where do I start? Ok, the slug. For home defense and use on people in any situation is completely overkill. There is absolutely no need for that large of a caliber or foot pounds of energy for use on a human. Unless, of course, the human is more than 1200 meters away. Which rules out our shotgun. With all the excess energy you get from the huge round, you get the following: large recoil, which kills double taps and efficient follow up shots. Minimal rounds are another effect of having such a large round. The typical riot gun will carry about 8 rounds, bird guns 3-5. The huge powerful round will penetrate every single wall and door (kids bedroom door perhaps) in the house. Accuracy, as far as CQB and Hostage situations, is not there. The gun itself is Much too big for cqb. With the heavy round you also get a heavy gun, which means it is very slow to wheel and fire (in the context and compared to pistols or pdw cqb weapons). So a slug is worthless for the home.
Now we move on to something more than worthless, and actually dangerous, and that is the buckshot. Let me start this way to illustrate my point. You wake in the night to hear your daughter screaming" help me daddy, someone is in my room", or you hear the dog barking and and go downstairs to find a window broken and footprints leading to a room in the house.
Now, you grab your shotgun, you are very qualified with it, well practiced and enter your daughters room. He has a knife to her throat. You CANNOT shoot without killing your daughter also. What are your options at this point? Really. What would you do with your shotgun? The answer is Nothing with your shotgun, you would watch him slit her throat. After that, who cares how it ends? You kill him, he kills you, whatever. Your responsibility as a protector of your family has failed! Regardless of whatever happens after that point. You lose.
CQB is ALL about speed and accuracy. The shotgun has neither!
The shotgun as a weapon has very limited uses. To arm men on a "line", to hold back a overrun of a camp would work. They are made to do mass killing and indescriminant killing. Neither of which is our goal in the house. Could you "clear" the house with one? Sure, but you cannot be particular about who you "clear".
Speed and accuracy, two things the shotgun has never been accused of. And that is exactly what you need for CQB.
People in this country love the shotgun for home defense because 1. NONE of them have ever done any REALISTIC scnenario training with it. Realistic for most people here is home defense, not kicking in doors swat or military style. That is a differnt matter. And 2. Have never thought about a scenario like the one described above. You would NEVER see a tier one military unit attempt a hostage rescue using shotguns. Our home defense scenario is always a hostage situation. It will always be a mix of loved ones and bad guys in the home. 3. They have not practiced enough with another weapon to be fast and accurate. If you are truly competant with a pistol and carbine, you would not consider a shotgun.
Formal Realistic training is a must for any father or husband who has a gun in the home and is willing to use it.
My oppinion, the shotgun has NO use as a home defense weapon. The right pistol or pdw (personal defense weapon/short barreled rifle/carbine) beats the shotgun in every single aspect of cqb.
I hope this help shed some realism on the home defense scenario.
And please feel free to let me know of something I may have overlooked or not thought of.

[BackBlast]

Where do I start? Ok, the slug. For home defense and use on people in any situation is completely overkill. There is absolutely no need for that large of a caliber or foot pounds of energy for use on a human. Unless, of course, the human is more than 1200 meters away. Which rules out our shotgun. With all the excess energy you get from the huge round, you get the following: large recoil, which kills double taps and efficient follow up shots. Minimal rounds are another effect of having such a large round. The typical riot gun will carry about 8 rounds, bird guns 3-5. The huge powerful round will penetrate every single wall and door (kids bedroom door perhaps) in the house. Accuracy, as far as CQB and Hostage situations, is not there. The gun itself is Much too big for cqb. With the heavy round you also get a heavy gun, which means it is very slow to wheel and fire (in the context and compared to pistols or pdw cqb weapons). So a slug is worthless for the home.

A few comments... I don't think "overkill" is really a valid way to describe anything you want dead. Dead is dead, if you used a RPG or 22LR. If you want something dead, overkill is much better than underkill. Collateral damage, or the potential for it, is another matter. The first quality you need in a projectile is penetration, the principle liability in a projectile is that same penetration. At least in a home.

I would use a slug over birdshot in defense of my loved ones. I'd probably pick buckshot over either due to collateral damage risk.. I generally agree with the other shotgun weaknesses, large/cumbersome, heavy recoil, few rounds, slow reload.

You would NEVER see a tier one military unit attempt a hostage rescue using shotguns. Our home defense scenario is always a hostage situation. It will always be a mix of loved ones and bad guys in the home.

...

And please feel free to let me know of something I may have overlooked or not thought of.

There is a big big difference between an invasion, and a defense. In a defense, you can potentially narrow your enemy's angles of attack.

Alarm systems (living or technical), obsticals (laminated glass, quality door locks, kick proof doors, etc). Anything that provides extra warning or extra time.

I think the idea would be to initially avoid the possibility of a hostage situation, because that's the worst potential senario (short of a dead family member). I practice here and there and consider myself a competent skill level, not good, just merely competent. I don't think I would attempt a hero shot with any of my weapons. I don't think it's realistic to expect that of anyone that's not a professional - and I don't even know that professionals want to take that shot if they can at all possibly avoid it. Instant incapacitation is difficult enough, instant incapacitation while behind a target you shouldn't be hitting makes it that much harder.

Anyway... I think time is better spent in drills to have family run to the "strong room" once the alarms are tripped as well as hand to hand combat moves to get out of a hostage hold and allow for clean shots on an exposed target.

Another consideration is time. Bullets are often not fatal immediately, but if any type of "stand off" situation develops after people are shot, they can easily bleed out. Better to end things sooner rather than later if you have a choice.

Anyway, this post is drifting a lot from the topic and more into tactics.. Though it's hard to separate tactics from weapons :-)

My first choice is a 22LR pistol as it's cheap, light, not ideal in most situations but "good enough" for hunting and defense in skilled hands, I would indeed feel undergunned against an agressor but I wouldn't be easy prey.

My next choice would be an AR-15 carbine in 5.56 + 9mm pistol in a primary/backup configuration. The carbine can be effective to ~600 yards, and I can shoot the 9 fairly comfortably out to about 50-75 yards. I can carry a good ammount of ammo and only really feel out gunned at very long ranges vs good glass and 308+ weapons. The principle disadvantage is that it's easier to find cover from me than some other weapon choices with heavier grain projectiles.

[Kelly Alwood]

I would like to address a couple comments. And please dont think I am picking a fight. I respect your training, and efforts. And you are obviously quite knowledgable. But I think you brought up some myths that must be expelled from our thinking in order to gain a realistic understanding of how these things work. How can I be truly prepared for a terrible situation. Like an armed burgalar.
I think overkill is bad. Overkill means inefficient. If I needed a bed moved to my new house and asked you for help, you wouldnt go rent a semi and trailer to move it. Why, because it is overkill. Potential collateral damage is high (hitting a loved one), too big and slow and not very manouvorable in the small space (house). Uses too much fuel (ammo). Stop light to stop light (multi targets), it is very slow. Slow to get up to speed (first shot), and fuel mileage (number of rounds) sucks. I think overkill is dangerous with a gun. As you said, dead is dead. If I can get that done with a 9mm, .380, or 5.7, why would I use a shotgun?
Penetration. I agree with you that penetration is needed. However shotguns again have way too much. Over penetration is overkill. I have fragmenting rounds in my home defense gun, which greatly limits pentration in the walls. There is no such thing for shotguns. They will penetrate several walls.
When a tier one team enters a building with hostages, there is no communication with the hostiles. They go in as fast and hard as they can, and take the money shot every time. Of course, we are all not CAG or DEVGRU, but the abaility to make a head shot from accross the bedroom should not be above anyone here. Picture the largest room in your house, and ask yourself if you could shoot a DVD at that distance. Im sure most everyone here could. It is not a high risk or difficult shot. I even bet if someone bet you your car aginst $1,000,000 cash you couldnt do it with one shot, giving you all the time you want to prepare, that you would take that bet. Of course you would. You would go to the range, try differnt ammo's, adjust your sights, and practice like mad. And when it counts, you would easily make the money shot. You could probably hit a playing card everytime from accross your bedroom. So the key factor here is the second point you made about doing it under duress. Im glad you brought that up, as I believe stress innoculation training is a must. No exceptions. The only way to perform under stress is to practice under stress. Realistic training. If a burgalar in your home would be the first time you ever fired under stress, then you would most likely perform badly.
We have a coulple saying in our courses, "in a stressful situation, you wont rise to the occation, you default to your level of training". - Barrett Tillman, "The Sixth Battle" If your stress shooting training is zero, then that is how high you will perform. If you repeatedly practice shooting under duress, then you will be ammune (or conrol) to the stress factor. Of course I cant dictate here the entire portion of the class, but I will post a chart and explain a couple things of why this is.
Your comments about drills and H2H are right on. These must be in place to keep things turning from bad to worse. At minimal it will be bad because you have an intruder in the house. Very good point. Thank you for bringing that up. That should be a well rehearst family activity. But I dont think time is better spent on them. You need to have both, the ability to avoid the problems all together, AND the ability to succesfully end a worse case scenario. When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. That is just a fact. They cant be everywhere all the time protecting everyone. We must have the ability to protect our own effectively. If that means sacrificing time and money to get trained, and/or to continue realistic training, then thats what it takes.

As you can see from the graph, the higher your stress/adrenaline indused heart rate goes, faster than 115 BPM, the more you effectiveness you loose. Meaning, (30 second version here) that the more stressed out you get, the poorer your ability to perform. And at last, no performance at all. It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to think clear and complete physical tasks correctly or at all when stress is high. The blood flow to your outer cortex start to shut down. Making it completely impossible to function correctly or at all when at these levels. So, this means you must include stress inducing factors into your training to make them effective. If you have no stress innoculation, you will not perform. Period.

[Phil801]

Interesting discussion. If asked before reading through this thread, I likely would have stood up for the shotgun. However, I trust fiveseven's extensive real world experience and expertise well beyond 98% of what I read and hear. His position makes a lot of sense to me. I think I'll hang my shotgun out in the barn to nail the pigeons with.

[BackBlast]

I would like to address a couple comments. And please dont think I am picking a fight. I respect your training, and efforts. And you are obviously quite knowledgable.

I appreciate the flattery :-) I can feel the swelling motions in my head now..

But I think you brought up some myths that must be expelled from our thinking in order to gain a realistic understanding of how these things work. How can I be truly prepared for a terrible situation. Like an armed burgalar.
I think overkill is bad. Overkill means inefficient. If I needed a bed moved to my new house and asked you for help, you wouldnt go rent a semi and trailer to move it. Why, because it is overkill. Potential collateral damage is high (hitting a loved one), too big and slow and not very manouvorable in the small space (house). Uses too much fuel (ammo). Stop light to stop light (multi targets), it is very slow. Slow to get up to speed (first shot), and fuel mileage (number of rounds) sucks. I think overkill is dangerous with a gun. As you said, dead is dead. If I can get that done with a 9mm, .380, or 5.7, why would I use a shotgun?

I agree with your general premise. Sometimes we don't have the luxury of choosing the most efficient tool and end up using implements of expedience, and in this case overkill is better than not good enough. That's all I'm trying to say. A shotgun is an implement of expedience, it's big, cheap, and a symbol embedded in our culture. If that's what you got and what you can afford, it's what you use, and I'd much prefer the heavy with too-much penetration end than say, birdshot. I don't really think this is a myth.

My personal preference would be my 5.56 carbine inside a house.

Penetration. I agree with you that penetration is needed. However shotguns again have way too much. Over penetration is overkill. I have fragmenting rounds in my home defense gun, which greatly limits pentration in the walls. There is no such thing for shotguns. They will penetrate several walls.

Fragmenting rounds? Everything I understand is that such rounds are designed for steel and not intended for people, and are indeed very a poor choice against people. I don't have links ready available but then again I'm not sure exactly what rounds you are speaking of. If what I understand is correct, I think this is taking the potential for undesirable collateral damage too far.

When a tier one team enters a building with hostages, there is no communication with the hostiles. They go in as fast and hard as they can, and take the money shot every time. Of course, we are all not CAG or DEVGRU, but the abaility to make a head shot from accross the bedroom should not be above anyone here. Picture the largest room in your house, and ask yourself if you could shoot a DVD at that distance. Im sure most everyone here could. It is not a high risk or difficult shot. I even bet if someone bet you your car aginst $1,000,000 cash you couldnt do it with one shot, giving you all the time you want to prepare, that you would take that bet. Of course you would. You would go to the range, try differnt ammo's, adjust your sights, and practice like mad. And when it counts, you would easily make the money shot. You could probably hit a playing card everytime from accross your bedroom. So the key factor here is the second point you made about doing it under duress. Im glad you brought that up, as I believe stress innoculation training is a must. No exceptions. The only way to perform under stress is to practice under stress. Realistic training. If a burgalar in your home would be the first time you ever fired under stress, then you would most likely perform badly.
We have a coulple saying in our courses, "in a stressful situation, you wont rise to the occation, you default to your level of training". - Barrett Tillman, "The Sixth Battle" If your stress shooting training is zero, then that is how high you will perform. If you repeatedly practice shooting under duress, then you will be ammune (or conrol) to the stress factor. Of course I cant dictate here the entire portion of the class, but I will post a chart and explain a couple things of why this is.

I can hit those kinds of items at those distances reliably, but there is the occasional flier that occurs that gives me pause on such a shot. Not to mention the likelihood of instant incapacitation which is hard enough on an unobstructed target, even a head shot. I've had some professional training, and with a carbine I've taken the money shot in timed move'n'shoot drills and I did well. Maybe it's just lack of real experience, but I still don't feel comfortable with the thought of really doing it.

Your comments about drills and H2H are right on. These must be in place to keep things turning from bad to worse. At minimal it will be bad because you have an intruder in the house. Very good point. Thank you for bringing that up. That should be a well rehearst family activity. But I dont think time is better spent on them. You need to have both, the ability to avoid the problems all together, AND the ability to succesfully end a worse case scenario. When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. That is just a fact. They cant be everywhere all the time protecting everyone. We must have the ability to protect our own effectively. If that means sacrificing time and money to get trained, and/or to continue realistic training, then thats what it takes.

Right, not intended to be a replacement for training. I didn't intend it that way, I just view efforts in hardening a defensive position as the biggest bang-for-buck in this case.

As you can see from the graph, the higher your stress/adrenaline indused heart rate goes, faster than 115 BPM, the more you effectiveness you loose. Meaning, (30 second version here) that the more stressed out you get, the poorer your ability to perform. And at last, no performance at all. It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to think clear and complete physical tasks correctly or at all when stress is high. The blood flow to your outer cortex start to shut down. Making it completely impossible to function correctly or at all when at these levels. So, this means you must include stress inducing factors into your training to make them effective. If you have no stress innoculation, you will not perform. Period.

Good info.

[BackBlast]

Fragmenting rounds? Everything I understand is that such rounds are designed for steel and not intended for people, and are indeed very a poor choice against people. I don't have links ready available but then again I'm not sure exactly what rounds you are speaking of. If what I understand is correct, I think this is taking the potential for undesirable collateral damage too far.

I'm sorry, I've confused "fragmenting" with "frangible" here. I made the mistake because I normally don't know how reliably projectiles that fragment in water, gelitin, and flesh does in dry wall and made the mistake.

I like fragmenting rounds too.. I just don't know if I'll get any fragmenting through a wall and don't really count on it. Maybe I should construct some walls and find out :-)

[blbardsley]

Okay. There have been some solid points brought up on both sides of the matter of home defense/CQB. Personally, I think the slow rate of fire, high recoil, and overpenetration make the shotgun marginal at best for all but the most unskilled of shooters. However, It's just my opinion.
The point of this thread is, however, preparedness weapons. The only place that I think everyone could agree on the superior utility of a shotgun is taking birds on the wing. In my humble opinion, the shotgun is too much of a "one trick pony" to warrant the weight of the weapon and it's ammo in any sort of scenario that involves travel on foot. If you are bunkered up in a secure home, maybe. The same goes for traveling in a vehicle. Both of those situations also assume I have a stable of complimentary weapons. I'll never pass up on a extra weapon at my disposal, but when it comes down to selecting a weapon I'll be carrying on my back when every ounce counts, I'd just need a better platform.
Just my two cents worth.

[loghomebldr]

If a person had an FNAR what type of optics would he want? Do you go with a Nightforce 8x32x56 type scope or do you go with a lighter, lower power ACOG, EO Tech etc, or something in between? Or would the ablitity to change back and forth be an advantage? And how about running South African or Privi through it. 150 grain or heavier?

As for a FN Five-Seven pistol, now that the "GOOD" ammo is no longer available to us, is it worth having one and using the low powered stuff? Seems like not.

[Kelly Alwood]

I love the FNAR. This and my fiveseven pistol are my two first grab n go guns. I have a leuopold MK IV 8x24x50 with lit reticle on it. Attached to the tube via picatiny rail, at 45 degrees is a trijicon Reflex II. This allows me long range precision engagement, and the ability to bAng it out at close range as well. In my 30 rd. Mags I have S. African sniper ammo which cycles it reliably, and is acceptably accurate for a battle round. In my 20 rd. Mags I have M118LR for my long range work. This has worked pretty well for me so far.
As far as good rounds for the Fiveseven go, I have punched through US IBA vests with the HP rounds at 25m or less. If you reload or has a friend that does, you can load your own AP rounds.

[BackBlast]

If a person had an FNAR what type of optics would he want? Do you go with a Nightforce 8x32x56 type scope or do you go with a lighter, lower power ACOG, EO Tech etc, or something in between? Or would the ablitity to change back and forth be an advantage? And how about running South African or Privi through it. 150 grain or heavier?

As for a FN Five-Seven pistol, now that the "GOOD" ammo is no longer available to us, is it worth having one and using the low powered stuff? Seems like not.

My research into it concluded that commercially available 5.7 penetrates no better than 9mm.

As far as good rounds for the Fiveseven go, I have punched through US IBA vests with the HP rounds at 25m or less. If you reload or has a friend that does, you can load your own AP rounds.

What components are you using?

[Kelly Alwood]

I'm using the FN hollow points. A hollowpoint .22 mag can punch through police vests. With a small round and high velocity you don't need steel core. A .17 will go through windshields without deflection. Non steel core. I don't know who is writing the reports, but I took my own weapon out and shot them. These are probably the same idiots that test sniper rifles for magazines, and shoot 100 yards. I will try to find someone to "donate" another piece of IBA and video it for a post here.

[BackBlast]

I'm using the FN hollow points. A hollowpoint .22 mag can punch through police vests. With a small round and high velocity you don't need steel core. A .17 will go through windshields without deflection. Non steel core. I don't know who is writing the reports, but I took my own weapon out and shot them. These are probably the same idiots that test sniper rifles for magazines, and shoot 100 yards. I will try to find someone to "donate" another piece of IBA and video it for a post here.

I was under the impression at present that nobody really sells components in bulk for 5.7... Do you have a source so I can take a glance at what you're talking about? None of my normal reloading supply shops sell these, though I understand you can use the varmit style projectiles for ARs as both use .224 diameter bullets with some degree of success, but those are not really light enough for good penetrating rounds in 5.7 in my understanding.

"police vests" is vague. There is lvl II armor, and lvl IIIa. I understand that IBA vests are not IIIa rated but rather to some mil spec that appears to sit somewhere between lvl II and IIIa. Looks like it was speced for some hot loaded 9mm. It is my understanding that for commercially available 5.7, a better verb is "may" rather than "will" defeat a IIIa vest. 5.7 is not really part of the spec, after all...

Anyway, when you say "police vests", I assume IIIa and would say I don't believe your statement regarding 22 mag is completely accurate. At least, I don't think it is out of a pistol, .22 mag *might* go through IIIa out of a rifle where you can hope for velocities higher than the magnums the IIIas are designed to stop. But if you've got a carbine length weapon, you could just move up to 5.56x45/7.62x39, not to mention I could load up a pet 9mm load that can hit 1700 fps out of a carbine length barrel that could perhaps get through IIIa as well.

[loghomebldr]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Bushmaster ACR? I've been waiting for 3 years for it to become available and I received an email saying it would be available March 1st.

Basic Features 16 1/2" cold hammer-forged barrel with innovative coating for extreme long life A2 "birdcage-type" hider to control muzzle flash Adjustable, two-position gas-piston-driven system, for firing suppressed or unsupressed Tool-less quick-change barrel system available in 10.5", 14.5", 16.5" and 18" and in multiple calibers Multi-caliber bolt carrier assembly quickly and easily changes from 223/5.56mm NATO to 6.8mm Rem SPC Free-floating MIL-STD 1913 monolithic top rail for optic mounting Fully ambidextrous controls include magazine release, bolt catch and release, fire selector and non-reciprocating charging handle High-impact composite hand guard with heat shield - accepts rail inserts High-impact composite lower receiver with textured magazine well and modular grip storage Fixed high-impact composite A-frame stock with rubber butt pad and sling mounts Magpul MBUS front/rear flip sights Ships in oversized hard case for accessory storage, includes 30-round PMAG Enhanced Features AAC Blackout flash hider with exceptional signature reduction Three-sided aluminum hand guard with integral MIL-STD 1913 rail for accessory mounting Folding and six-position telescoping high-impact polymer stock with rubber butt pad and sling mounts 2-Point push button sling

[BackBlast]

It's interesting.. I find it expensive and heavy for what it is. The 1/9" barrel is rather disappointing too. Maybe they'll come down some on the price, and put a better barrel that can handle heavy projectiles on it, it would have more interest to me then.

[loghomebldr]

It's interesting.. I find it expensive and heavy for what it is. The 1/9" barrel is rather disappointing too. Maybe they'll come down some on the price, and put a better barrel that can handle heavy projectiles on it, it would have more interest to me then.

Sometimes it's just an individual barrel. I have a 1/9 that shoots heavy bullets just fine, but another doesn't like anything over 68 grains.

[BackBlast]

Sometimes it's just an individual barrel. I have a 1/9 that shoots heavy bullets just fine, but another doesn't like anything over 68 grains.

I understand that temperature, altitude, and range can effect it too when you're borderline. Regardless, I can't afford to buy a rifle that *might* under some conditions, shoot my primary loads with good accuracy...

Though I understand that sometime in the future they are going to sell a 1/7" version...

[loghomebldr]

Though I understand that sometime in the future they are going to sell a 1/7" version...

That would be wonderful.

[loghomebldr]

I sent an email to Bushmaster on Friday and asked about a 1/7 twist barrel for the ACR and received a reply back already. The 1/7 barrels will be available this summer for the ACR.

[sp-train-77]

I get the feeling that many of the respondents have never faced an armed gang member in a dark alley on a hot, sultry night in a situation where being legally authorized to shoot is not certain. War zone experience is radically different. This situation is analogous to what we face in the civilian world whenever we confront assailants. I taught literally hundreds of police and security types basic firearms skills. Only one of my students ever got himself in trouble and that is because he drew a Crossman BB gun on two felons in the middle of stealing heavy equipment.

Here is my 50 years worth of experience rolled up in a nutshell. There is NO perfect gun or round. If you have confidence in a particular firearm and/or round and you have practiced extensively with it, then it is the right combination for you. If you are carrying what someone said is best and you don't trust it you will be timid and that is worse than being underarmed. 5.7 FN? 38 Special? 44 magnum? 44-40 (one of my favorites)? 30-06? Doesn't matter. What you know how to use well does. Plus, 90+% of civilian confrontations are ended in the favor of the innocent party by the introduction of a firearm.

12 guage 00 Buck does not have enough penetration? This is curious. It has enough penetration to blast through platerboard and take out the folks in the next room. I wonder what range the results reflect. I routinely drilled my students on the use of a shotgun at 40 yards with excellent results. At 10 feet there is not much that will stop it. Even if, let us assume, your assailant is somehow protected from penetration, all you deliver on your assailant is the full energy of a 1 1/4 ounce 12 gauge load that assailant will have his attention adequately diverted.

After carrying and training others in most common calibers (38, 357, 9mm, 45 ACP) I have settled on 38/357 and 12 gauge with 44-40 "for fun." Don't agree? That's OK by me but I hope you have practiced extensively with your chosen weapons (P.S. 100 rounds is not extensive practice). Your skill level and you confidence in your training and practice is the decisive element.

"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

[Ether15:34]

Well, this has been good reading! Thanks all!

If I have to bug out, I'd take my Walther P22 with the can and my Winchester .22lr bolt action with the threaded barrel. Even though it does not have a lot of power, it is silent, accurate, and can be used as an "acquisition" weapon. Cans/suppressors can be made easily, especially for the rifle. Ammo is light so I can carry plenty, and with the right shot placement, it is my understanding that man sized targets are fair game.

[Kelly Alwood]

OK, I told you I would do a video of the FN FiveSeven. Here it is shooting a US Army vest.

[Kelly Alwood]

Level IIIA. PASGT vest. The ballistic filler consists of 13 plies of 14 oz/yd2 (457 g/m2) water repellent treated Aramid (Kevlar 29) fabric.